Comments for The Civil Libertarian http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com On life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:47:53 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 Comment on The Power of Symbolism by Annie http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/the-power-of-symbolism/#comment-85 Annie Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:47:53 +0000 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/?p=72#comment-85 You're gonna love this one. http://newsbusters.org/comment/reply/27722#comment-form Oh. my. god. Just no words. I realize it's not a visual symbol, but wow. I think if the press were talking about me that way nonstop (in the face of 200 years of history) I'd be arrogant like he is too. You’re gonna love this one. http://newsbusters.org/comment/reply/27722#comment-form

Oh. my. god. Just no words. I realize it’s not a visual symbol, but wow. I think if the press were talking about me that way nonstop (in the face of 200 years of history) I’d be arrogant like he is too.

]]> Comment on The Power of Symbolism by bigliberty http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/the-power-of-symbolism/#comment-84 bigliberty Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:00:54 +0000 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/?p=72#comment-84 Yes, bringing up the fascist iconography wasn't an attempt to say that Obama *was* Hitler, as you noticed, Limor. It just shows the fine line between interpretations of body language and symbols - the LA Times was quick to jump on his body language as being like God reaching out to Adam in that classic work, but his body language could have easily been interpreted much, much differently. Really what it does is point out the gross bias of a so-called "news" organization. They should leave implications about body language to mythicists and other hoarders of rubbish. It's *not* journalism, it's suggestion. I.e., <b>propaganda</b>. <i>all</i> of the Obama-as-heavenly stuff that's come out, Annie, is pure propaganda, plain and simple. I think people in this country have a hard time seeing propaganda for what it is, because we're not used to it. They think, "Well, Obama's different, so deifying him is okay because, well, he deserves it!" or somesuch rubbish. It's just propaganda. Suggestion. Persuasion. Implication. Propaganda. Yes, bringing up the fascist iconography wasn’t an attempt to say that Obama *was* Hitler, as you noticed, Limor. It just shows the fine line between interpretations of body language and symbols – the LA Times was quick to jump on his body language as being like God reaching out to Adam in that classic work, but his body language could have easily been interpreted much, much differently.

Really what it does is point out the gross bias of a so-called “news” organization. They should leave implications about body language to mythicists and other hoarders of rubbish. It’s *not* journalism, it’s suggestion. I.e., propaganda.

all of the Obama-as-heavenly stuff that’s come out, Annie, is pure propaganda, plain and simple. I think people in this country have a hard time seeing propaganda for what it is, because we’re not used to it. They think, “Well, Obama’s different, so deifying him is okay because, well, he deserves it!” or somesuch rubbish.

It’s just propaganda. Suggestion. Persuasion. Implication. Propaganda.

]]> Comment on The Power of Symbolism by Annie http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/the-power-of-symbolism/#comment-83 Annie Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:06:29 +0000 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/?p=72#comment-83 That's pretty much what he's got - symbolism and rhetoric. He's usually been photographed from below, and with added effects like Halos and sparkly stuff. He had that background that called to mind the Bethlehem star, he built that whole setup here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1050017/Obama-God-Democrats-build-temple-Barack.html complete with the mock plane - weird. http://ace.mu.nu/archives/257646.php http://media.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OWM0ZTE5Y2M5ZjkxZjY4OGRhNzBlNTAzNzllMmJiMzA He basks in the adoration, and uses it, and definitely uses Messianic symbolism and other troubling elements. (Well, he also said that this was the moment the planet would begin to heal and the seas would lower.) Some of it is his and a lot of it is the media love affair with him as well as the adoring crowds. The whole thing gets surreal sometimes. You saw the one on the Triumphal entry right? But that's the doing of an artist who is cryptic about his intent: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87040 That’s pretty much what he’s got – symbolism and rhetoric. He’s usually been photographed from below, and with added effects like Halos and sparkly stuff. He had that background that called to mind the Bethlehem star, he built that whole setup here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1050017/Obama-God-Democrats-build-temple-Barack.html complete with the mock plane – weird. http://ace.mu.nu/archives/257646.php http://media.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OWM0ZTE5Y2M5ZjkxZjY4OGRhNzBlNTAzNzllMmJiMzA

He basks in the adoration, and uses it, and definitely uses Messianic symbolism and other troubling elements. (Well, he also said that this was the moment the planet would begin to heal and the seas would lower.) Some of it is his and a lot of it is the media love affair with him as well as the adoring crowds. The whole thing gets surreal sometimes.

You saw the one on the Triumphal entry right? But that’s the doing of an artist who is cryptic about his intent: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87040

]]> Comment on The Power of Symbolism by Limor http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/the-power-of-symbolism/#comment-82 Limor Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:10:54 +0000 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/?p=72#comment-82 I'm not going to compare Obama and Hitler, not that I think that you are. However, many people forget where the word Nazi comes from. They were the National Socialist German Worker's Party, and shortened it to Nazi. I’m not going to compare Obama and Hitler, not that I think that you are. However, many people forget where the word Nazi comes from. They were the National Socialist German Worker’s Party, and shortened it to Nazi.

]]> Comment on The Power of Symbolism by vesta44 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/the-power-of-symbolism/#comment-81 vesta44 Sun, 25 Jan 2009 16:11:08 +0000 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/?p=72#comment-81 I'm sure other politicians have used that exact same gesture in the past and no one has ever made either connection (Hitler or God) to them. Why that connection has to be made just because a black man ran for and became POTUS on a platform of hope and change seems rather nit-picky to me. As far as I'm concerned, if anyone should be compared to Hitler (or for thinking they're God), it's Bush and Cheney. Those two (with the help of Congress, or the indifference of Congress, take your pick) have done more to send this country on the road to the dark ages and feudalism than I care to think about. I don't know that Obama can bring about all the change we need, or that any politician can, for that matter, not with the system that's in place right now. I'm willing to give him the benefit of doubt, for now, which I was never willing to give to Bush Jr after Bush Sr was in office (I don't trust political dynasties, too much opportunity for corruption by power). I'm skeptical of Obama simply because of the Chicago political background he has. And having lived in Illinois for almost 20 years of my life, I've heard/read/seen plenty of the backroom/illegal shit go on in Illinois/Chicago politics to be a bit cynical about someone who comes from that background when others say he wasn't/isn't affected/influenced by it. Whether that influence was for good or ill remains to be seen, but I won't be surprised either way. I’m sure other politicians have used that exact same gesture in the past and no one has ever made either connection (Hitler or God) to them. Why that connection has to be made just because a black man ran for and became POTUS on a platform of hope and change seems rather nit-picky to me. As far as I’m concerned, if anyone should be compared to Hitler (or for thinking they’re God), it’s Bush and Cheney. Those two (with the help of Congress, or the indifference of Congress, take your pick) have done more to send this country on the road to the dark ages and feudalism than I care to think about.
I don’t know that Obama can bring about all the change we need, or that any politician can, for that matter, not with the system that’s in place right now. I’m willing to give him the benefit of doubt, for now, which I was never willing to give to Bush Jr after Bush Sr was in office (I don’t trust political dynasties, too much opportunity for corruption by power).
I’m skeptical of Obama simply because of the Chicago political background he has. And having lived in Illinois for almost 20 years of my life, I’ve heard/read/seen plenty of the backroom/illegal shit go on in Illinois/Chicago politics to be a bit cynical about someone who comes from that background when others say he wasn’t/isn’t affected/influenced by it. Whether that influence was for good or ill remains to be seen, but I won’t be surprised either way.

]]> Comment on When Your Body is No Longer Yours by AnnieMcPhee http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/when-your-body-is-no-longer-yours/#comment-80 AnnieMcPhee Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:10:18 +0000 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/?p=70#comment-80 I think you've done a great job with this post; it's very hard to formulate an answer to it. Part of it is the spectre of this is so huge, so encompassing, and so horrible, that I find it hard to discuss the big picture. Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugs was apparently prophetic *in detail* about these very things. People laugh at the time, but then we laughed at "Politically Correct Bedtime Stories" too, because it wasn't possible that anything would be carried that far. Well, things do get carried all the way and further, no matter what it is - from the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement to any other idea (ideas have consequences) that's come down the pike. Interesting times? They're gonna get more and more interesting, I think. I think you’ve done a great job with this post; it’s very hard to formulate an answer to it. Part of it is the spectre of this is so huge, so encompassing, and so horrible, that I find it hard to discuss the big picture. Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugs was apparently prophetic *in detail* about these very things. People laugh at the time, but then we laughed at “Politically Correct Bedtime Stories” too, because it wasn’t possible that anything would be carried that far. Well, things do get carried all the way and further, no matter what it is – from the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement to any other idea (ideas have consequences) that’s come down the pike.

Interesting times? They’re gonna get more and more interesting, I think.

]]> Comment on “From Each According to His Ability, to Each According to His Need” by Jessica http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/from-each-according-to-his-ability-to-each-according-to-his-need/#comment-75 Jessica Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:00:34 +0000 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/?p=47#comment-75 Either change us to a socialist society like Sweden or let capitalism run it's course and punish the greedy bastages who didn't know when to stop. This half-a** socialism (corporate bailouts from the government, welfare checks that are given indirectly by the wealthy)is just going to prolong this recession. I don't even care if we switch to socialismat this point. Have you been to Stockholm? They don't have slums, they don't worry about losing their house and best of all; they get paid in proportion to their value. Imagine if all of these stupid celebrities made 1,000 an episode instead of $5,000,000 (jerry seinfeld)and teachers got paid as much as the Lawyers they taught in school. Taxes would be higher but it wouldn't matter. I know I'm pretty fu**ing tired of seeing these idiot fat-cats on wall street making so much money by gambling people's insurance premiums and then walking away while leaving a trickle down effect of massive layoffs and foreclosures. Either change us to a socialist society like Sweden or let capitalism run it’s course and punish the greedy bastages who didn’t know when to stop. This half-a** socialism (corporate bailouts from the government, welfare checks that are given indirectly by the wealthy)is just going to prolong this recession.

I don’t even care if we switch to socialismat this point. Have you been to Stockholm? They don’t have slums, they don’t worry about losing their house and best of all; they get paid in proportion to their value. Imagine if all of these stupid celebrities made 1,000 an episode instead of $5,000,000 (jerry seinfeld)and teachers got paid as much as the Lawyers they taught in school. Taxes would be higher but it wouldn’t matter.

I know I’m pretty fu**ing tired of seeing these idiot fat-cats on wall street making so much money by gambling people’s insurance premiums and then walking away while leaving a trickle down effect of massive layoffs and foreclosures.

]]> Comment on McCain campaign worker mugged and mutilated by Obama supporter in Pittsburgh today by Mace Attack, and General Violence Against McCain Supporters « The Civil Libertarian http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/mccain-campaign-worker-mugged-and-mutilated-by-obama-supporter-in-pittsburgh-today/#comment-60 Mace Attack, and General Violence Against McCain Supporters « The Civil Libertarian Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:10:04 +0000 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-60 [...] McCain campaign worker mugged and mutilated by Obama supporter in Pittsburgh today [...] [...] McCain campaign worker mugged and mutilated by Obama supporter in Pittsburgh today [...]

]]> Comment on McCain campaign worker mugged and mutilated by Obama supporter in Pittsburgh today by Allegations - VA McCain Worker Sprayed With Mace « The Civil Libertarian http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/mccain-campaign-worker-mugged-and-mutilated-by-obama-supporter-in-pittsburgh-today/#comment-59 Allegations - VA McCain Worker Sprayed With Mace « The Civil Libertarian Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:09:04 +0000 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/?p=59#comment-59 [...] McCain campaign worker mugged and mutilated by Obama supporter in Pittsburgh today [...] [...] McCain campaign worker mugged and mutilated by Obama supporter in Pittsburgh today [...]

]]> Comment on The Obama Borg Hive Mind by AnnieMcPhee http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/the-obama-borg-hive-mind/#comment-58 AnnieMcPhee Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:25:59 +0000 http://thecivillibertarian.wordpress.com/?p=55#comment-58 Actually you both raise excellent points. TCL, the Butterfly Effect is so misunderstood, I think, but you're darned right it's amazing stuff. And you may be quite right that it's as simple as you say - that it's impossible, and that's that, for those very reasons. Yet it's always seemed a little more complex why real liberty always ends up leading back to socialism - it happened to Rome and it's happening here - when poverty lifts and people have time to pontificate and scheme instead of just slaving away for their daily needs, guilt sets in and people capitalize on that guilt to get a bigger slice of pie. Never thinking it would be better to bake more pies - easier to get a little of what someone else has baked. I'm just pointing out the converse of your point that socialism can't work (and it can't) - free markets and personal rights seem to in the long run lead back to socialism; and it isn't because they don't work...it's more like because they work too well and human nature is what it is. Sandy, I haven't even looked to have noticed the phenomenon, but it figures I guess. I don't think I realized going in how hardcore much of the socialist beliefs there were...which is particularly naive of someone like me to not realize. I worry, too, and of course when it comes down to it no one wants the government conducting constant force over them, but as what's-his-name said, the people never give up their liberties except under a great delusion. We see the delusion very clearly, and it's clearly a great one. Actually you both raise excellent points. TCL, the Butterfly Effect is so misunderstood, I think, but you’re darned right it’s amazing stuff. And you may be quite right that it’s as simple as you say – that it’s impossible, and that’s that, for those very reasons. Yet it’s always seemed a little more complex why real liberty always ends up leading back to socialism – it happened to Rome and it’s happening here – when poverty lifts and people have time to pontificate and scheme instead of just slaving away for their daily needs, guilt sets in and people capitalize on that guilt to get a bigger slice of pie. Never thinking it would be better to bake more pies – easier to get a little of what someone else has baked. I’m just pointing out the converse of your point that socialism can’t work (and it can’t) – free markets and personal rights seem to in the long run lead back to socialism; and it isn’t because they don’t work…it’s more like because they work too well and human nature is what it is.

Sandy, I haven’t even looked to have noticed the phenomenon, but it figures I guess. I don’t think I realized going in how hardcore much of the socialist beliefs there were…which is particularly naive of someone like me to not realize. I worry, too, and of course when it comes down to it no one wants the government conducting constant force over them, but as what’s-his-name said, the people never give up their liberties except under a great delusion. We see the delusion very clearly, and it’s clearly a great one.

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